• Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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    2 months ago

    I can’t discount that there are plenty of Israeli bigots who would love to see Palestine wiped out, sure. But let’s not pretend they’re a hive mind. And maybe not tar the people doing this with the same brush as the ones rioting over rapists being imprisoned.

    • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      If there are dissenting voices in Israel they need to speak up. And if voices within Israel are speaking up they need to be amplified.

      All dissent I’ve heard has come from the diaspora.

      • Kudusch@startrek.website
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        2 months ago

        “Without the return of the hostages we will not be able to end the war, we will not be able to rehabilitate ourselves as a society,” Ron Tomer, president of the Manufacturers’ Association of Israel. Te me, “Rehabilitation” implies a level of dissent with Netanyahu’s actions.

        • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          I mean, I see what you are saying, but that is pretty rhetorically light. I can see this as maybe the start of something, but I think what we’re seeing out of Israel warrants a more focused and directed conversation.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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        2 months ago

        Then maybe you should, I don’t know, click on the link at the top of this article and look at the photos.

        Or possibly just read the headline of the post you’re commenting in.

        For fuck’s sake…

        • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          They are protesting the retrieval of the hostages; not the genocide of the Gazan people. As far as I know, there are almost no voices in Israel speaking out against the genocide of the Gazan people.

          Maybe you should read the article.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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            2 months ago

            This article?

            The protests came as the White House said that national security adviser Jake Sullivan held a virtual meeting with families of U.S. hostages held by Hamas in Gaza and ahead of Israeli labor union Histadrut calling a general strike for Monday to protest the Netanyahu government and demand an immediate hostage-release and ceasefire deal.

            I read it.

            Why are you gaslighting?

            • Sundial@lemm.ee
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              2 months ago

              The trigger for the protests and ceasefire demands was for the rescue hostages, not the end of the ongoing genocide.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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                2 months ago

                Yes, I know what triggered them. What do you think they want Netanyahu to do? Kill even more Palestinians? Is that what you think they’re calling for here? Bomb harder?

                Because they’re literally calling for the opposite. Isn’t that a good thing?

                • Sundial@lemm.ee
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                  2 months ago

                  There’s no doubt that a good chunk of the population does want Netanyahu to kill even more Palestinians. These people didn’t start protesting over their actions against the Palestinians. So once they have the hostages it’s a safe assumption that they will stop protrsting and demanding a ceasefire.

            • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              @oakey66@lemmy.world started this thread with the topic:

              If every hostage was returned, Israel would be looking for every opportunity to level Gaza and further displace Palestinians in the West Bank.

              and they are right.

              You said:

              But let’s not pretend they’re a hive mind.

              I pointed out that I’ve seen there are no sources I’ve seen to the contrary coming out of Israel. Everything I’ve seen to the contrary (sources which would make the argument that Israel should not be engaging in genocide, agreeing with @oakey66@lemmy.world 's point ) has been coming from diaspora sources, not sources within Israel.

              You then responded with:

              just read the headline of the post

              But the headline of the article does not make that point, and neither does the article. In fact, its another unit of evidence to suggest there is almost no will to stop the genocide of the Gazan people coming from within Israel. The word genocide occurs no where in the article. There is no mention of forced removal. There is no mention of ethnic cleansing. These protests clearly have nothing to do with the ongoing genocide of the Gazan people and are solely focused on “getting the hostages back”. If there are other sources or people that can speak for the protests that say other wise, I’d love to find them. I’ve not found anyone in Israel willing to call what the Israeli government is doing a genocide. Dissent in Israel wants the hostages back, but they don’t seem to give a shit about the continuing genocide of the Gazan people.

              If you think that these protest have anything to do with stopping the war or stopping the genocide, its yourself who has gaslit you.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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                2 months ago

                Let me get this straight…

                Are you really claiming that the entire population of Israel- all 9.5 million people- share exactly the same opinion on Palestine?

                Because that would be incredibly fucking bigoted of you, so I want to make sure that’s what you’re saying.

                • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  No, I’m making the point that if there is descent on this issue within Israel I can’t find it. I haven’t heard it. I’m also not going to project a desire to believe it exists onto a world where I don’t have evidence for it. I want to find it. I’ve looked for it. I can’t find it.

                  All the Jewish led criticism I’ve found of Israels actions appears to be coming from the diaspora. I can’t find sources from within Israel calling the Israeli campaign a genocide or calling for it to stop.

                  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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                    2 months ago

                    How many people have you actually heard from? Let’s say percentagewise- what percentage of the 9.5 million Israelis have you heard from to determine that there is no dissent?

    • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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      2 months ago

      If you want to believe this, its on you to show us it. The entire thread obviously knows much more about whats going on in Israel and all we’ve gotten from you is your projection of how you wish things were.

      If this opposition to the Israeli led genocide exists within Israel show us.

      • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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        2 months ago

        Sure, right after I show you how I don’t have dual loyalties to America and Israel, right? I have to show people that one all the time.

        Of course, a lot of times, they don’t believe me anyway.

        • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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          2 months ago

          You are making a claim for the existence of a thing. No one else made that claim. We are asking for evidence of that claim. I’ve looked for evidence. I am not finding any evidence of a “don’t genocide the Gazans” movement within Israel. I can find evidence outside of Israel.

          • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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            2 months ago

            I can find evidence outside of Israel

            Funny how you left out the whole Jewish diaspora part this time like you said before. Because you absolutely suggested that people like me are Israelis or even have some sort of opinion about Israel that should be weighted higher than any other non-Israeli.

            I want to make this absolutely clear to you:

            I am a Jew.
            I am not an Israeli.
            I have no affiliation to Israel.
            I have no Israeli relatives.
            I have never been and do not plan to go.
            I feel absolutely no allegiance or kinship or anything else to Israel and never have.
            I was born in Indiana.
            I have far more in common with a Palestinian-American born in Omaha than I do a Jewish Israeli born in Tel Aviv.

            Therefore: my stance on Israeli genocide is of equal weight to yours.

            So stop bringing up non-Israeli Jews as if they are of specific relevance to this issue.

            • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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              2 months ago

              You like, really need to go touch some grass.

              You are asking people to support your claim that there is an extant anti-genocide movement within Israel. You’ve done it repeatedly throughout this entire post.

              YOU are making a claim and I’m asking for your evidence.

              • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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                2 months ago

                And I am telling you that I have no reason to give anything to someone who thinks about me and other non-Israeli Jews in such a bigoted way no matter how many times they ask.

                Sorry, you lost that when you decided I have dual loyalties.

                • TropicalDingdong@lemmy.world
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                  2 months ago

                  You are just making up the idea that anything any one here has said is biggoted. Its completely disconnected from reality

                  • Flying Squid@lemmy.worldOPM
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                    2 months ago

                    I will quote you again:

                    All the Jewish led criticism I’ve found of Israels actions appears to be coming from the diaspora. I can’t find sources from within Israel calling the Israeli campaign a genocide or calling for it to stop.

                    And I will tell you again: I am not an Israeli. I have no affiliation to Israel. Stop associating me with Israel. It’s bigoted. More to the point, it’s a lie.