Sure, when you can force the workforce to do a thing, that thing tends to get done. But they’ll probably do it slower than if they chose to do it. So other things will suffer if they force a certain initiative.
And that’s what we saw in the USSR. Certain initiatives progressed well (space program, nuclear program, etc), while others suffered (food production, basic manufacturing, etc).
Sure, when you can force the workforce to do a thing,
Yeah… turns out that homelessness is a great motivator.
But they’ll probably do it slower than if they chose to do it.
Soooo… just like wage slaves, eh?
food production, basic manufacturing
After 1947 there was no great problems with food production in the USSR. Still… you’re not really wrong. The capitalist mode of production does offer a feedback system for consumer goods - even though it’s a pretty terrible one that only works as long as the capitalists have to compete for a well-paid populace’s buying power.
Lolwut? USSR recovered from being a devastated bomb crater of a country faster than Europe did on American dollar while waging a cold war against the rest of the world. They beat the US to space time and time again too.
Come the 80s, their manufacturing was well ahead of the west, and there weren’t any food issues either, so I’m not sure what you mean? The horrors of Stalin’s collectivisation efforts were a good bit before the cold war, and that wasn’t really an issue of food manufacturing.
Nobody was forced to do any type of work more than anybody is under capitalism, if anything under capitalism as it is today - you take what you are given.
In the USSR, higher education being free (as is the socialist tradition) gave people a lot more choice, no need to balance student debt against future potential earnings and as such ability to pay health expenses, like we see in the US today.
They suffered from consumer goods issues because things like game consoles and tamagotchi can’t exactly be planned in a planned economy.
It’s why I personally believe in a dual-economy, where necessities are planned centrally, from housing to infrastructure to utilities and independent worker co-operatives do the rest, I think that’s the lesson there ultimately. Oh and fuck the Russian Federation.
I think you’re looking at history through rose-colored glasses. Read pretty much any story from those who left the USSR to get a better picture of how life was there. Here are a two that I’ve read:
The Persecutor
A Backpack, A Bear, and Eight Crates of Vodka
Feel free to find your own, but I find real stories of people trying to flee more valuable in understanding life in an area than books with economic figures.
If life was so good there, why did so many try to flee? Leaving was incredibly hard, why was that?
I personally believe in a dual-economy
I disagree, but we probably agree more than we disagree.
For example, I believe in a strong safety net (something like UBI), and believe we should eliminate minimum wages. If you don’t need to work to meet basic needs (food and shelter), you won’t take work unless it improves on that basic set of needs. Maybe that means we’ll increase automation or immigration to fill roles nobody wants, or maybe that means pay will increase. Either way, it shouldn’t be centrally planned.
I think the lesson from the USSR is that centrally planned economies are repressive, and that we need to come up with better ways of solving the needs of the poor or we’ll have another popular uprising that goes way beyond what anyone actually wanted.
Socialist policies should be limited, imo, to voluntary associations, like co-ops and private unions. It shouldn’t enter government policy because politicians like power more than actually helping people.
Read pretty much any story from those who left the USSR to get a better picture of how life was there.
A very unbiased account indeed
but I find real stories of people trying to flee more valuable in understanding life in an area than books with economic figures.
I don’t. People for the most part are morons that gulp down ivermectin and bleach enemas by the truckload to make their healing crystals work in time for Sunday church, so they can pray away the gay. People are fickle, and are often at odds with facts. As a trans person I know this well.
If life was so good there
That’s the neat part, I never claimed that. The USSR was a shithole, but the user I originally responded to was wrong as well. Two things can be true at once.
UBI
Or just nationalize necessities to cut out capitalist middlemen taking a cut. All a UBI of $100 will do is raise prices by $100 because people now have $100 more, and landlords et al. will want those $100. Under capitalism and neoliberalism the rich will always be at the top of the food chain in this manner.
Socialist policies should be limited, imo, to voluntary associations, like co-ops and private unions.
So they can be easily crushed by capitalist lobbying in western “”““democracies””".
I admire neolibs who genuinely want to make things better, and you have my respect for that, but I think you’re just a bit naive and haven’t quite thought everything through.
Come the 80s, their manufacturing was well ahead of the west, and there weren’t any food issues either.
That’s not true. While the USSR did have a significant manufacturing capacity, it was often inefficient due to the planned economy. This led to factories closing after 1991 because they couldn’t compete with the free market. The quality of products was often subpar, and there was a lack of diversity and functionality. In fact, many essential items weren’t even manufactured.
This was a major contributor to the Soviet Union’s economic downfall and eventual collapse. If you read archival records (available through various books, for instance), you’ll find that even high-ranking officials like ministers and vice ministers were writing letters to each other in the 80s about the poor output in their respective sectors, including the oil industry, which was struggling due to outdated technology.
In the USSR, higher education being free (as is the socialist tradition) gave people a lot more choice
The idea that the Soviet Union had exceptional higher education is a myth. In reality, their education system was overly focused on technical skills, neglecting essential life skills like critical thinking, creativity, decision-making, and many others.
This became apparent in the 90s when many supposedly ‘highly educated’ individuals were involved in fraudulent schemes, failed to build and stand for democracy. While it’s true that the USSR produced some outstanding scientists, that’s where the excellence ended. A society cannot thrive solely on the backs of scientists and enginners. A well-rounded education is essential for prosperity.
In reality, their education system was overly focused on technical skills, neglecting essential life skills like critical thinking, creativity, decision-making, and many others.
The US is the only country in the western world that teaches strictly extra-curricular matters at a university level, afaik. I went to uni in the UK for computer science, all of my classes were only about computer science and it’s subdomains only, there are no “life skills” classes.
This became apparent in the 90s when many supposedly ‘highly educated’ individuals were involved in fraudulent schemes, failed to build and stand for democracy
As opposed to the low levels of fraud and extremely healthy democracies of which countries exactly?
As for the rest of your claims I would like to see direct sources. The “essential items” tidbit in particular I find suspect because the definition is quite fickle and the idea is subjective and depends on circumstances. Cars were famously not very common amongst USSR citizens. What was though is public transport, and we’re now in the west finding out that neglecting public transport and shifting towards personal vehicles has been a huge mistake, so that’s that.
I’d recommend reading some books about the Soviet Union, particularly its later years. It’s not feasible for me to provide an in-depth education on this topic in a single post. It’s clear that you are not knowledgeable, and I’m not sure why you’re arguing without being informed on the subject ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Sure, when you can force the workforce to do a thing, that thing tends to get done. But they’ll probably do it slower than if they chose to do it. So other things will suffer if they force a certain initiative.
And that’s what we saw in the USSR. Certain initiatives progressed well (space program, nuclear program, etc), while others suffered (food production, basic manufacturing, etc).
Yeah… turns out that homelessness is a great motivator.
Soooo… just like wage slaves, eh?
After 1947 there was no great problems with food production in the USSR. Still… you’re not really wrong. The capitalist mode of production does offer a feedback system for consumer goods - even though it’s a pretty terrible one that only works as long as the capitalists have to compete for a well-paid populace’s buying power.
If I recall correctly the USSR was a pretty steady grain importer throughout their history
As far as I’m aware, the USSR started importing grain in the 60s - primarily to feed livestock as meat became a regular thing for Soviet citizens.
Lolwut? USSR recovered from being a devastated bomb crater of a country faster than Europe did on American dollar while waging a cold war against the rest of the world. They beat the US to space time and time again too.
Come the 80s, their manufacturing was well ahead of the west, and there weren’t any food issues either, so I’m not sure what you mean? The horrors of Stalin’s collectivisation efforts were a good bit before the cold war, and that wasn’t really an issue of food manufacturing.
Nobody was forced to do any type of work more than anybody is under capitalism, if anything under capitalism as it is today - you take what you are given.
In the USSR, higher education being free (as is the socialist tradition) gave people a lot more choice, no need to balance student debt against future potential earnings and as such ability to pay health expenses, like we see in the US today.
They suffered from consumer goods issues because things like game consoles and tamagotchi can’t exactly be planned in a planned economy.
It’s why I personally believe in a dual-economy, where necessities are planned centrally, from housing to infrastructure to utilities and independent worker co-operatives do the rest, I think that’s the lesson there ultimately. Oh and fuck the Russian Federation.
I think you’re looking at history through rose-colored glasses. Read pretty much any story from those who left the USSR to get a better picture of how life was there. Here are a two that I’ve read:
Feel free to find your own, but I find real stories of people trying to flee more valuable in understanding life in an area than books with economic figures.
If life was so good there, why did so many try to flee? Leaving was incredibly hard, why was that?
I disagree, but we probably agree more than we disagree.
For example, I believe in a strong safety net (something like UBI), and believe we should eliminate minimum wages. If you don’t need to work to meet basic needs (food and shelter), you won’t take work unless it improves on that basic set of needs. Maybe that means we’ll increase automation or immigration to fill roles nobody wants, or maybe that means pay will increase. Either way, it shouldn’t be centrally planned.
I think the lesson from the USSR is that centrally planned economies are repressive, and that we need to come up with better ways of solving the needs of the poor or we’ll have another popular uprising that goes way beyond what anyone actually wanted.
Socialist policies should be limited, imo, to voluntary associations, like co-ops and private unions. It shouldn’t enter government policy because politicians like power more than actually helping people.
A very unbiased account indeed
I don’t. People for the most part are morons that gulp down ivermectin and bleach enemas by the truckload to make their healing crystals work in time for Sunday church, so they can pray away the gay. People are fickle, and are often at odds with facts. As a trans person I know this well.
That’s the neat part, I never claimed that. The USSR was a shithole, but the user I originally responded to was wrong as well. Two things can be true at once.
Or just nationalize necessities to cut out capitalist middlemen taking a cut. All a UBI of $100 will do is raise prices by $100 because people now have $100 more, and landlords et al. will want those $100. Under capitalism and neoliberalism the rich will always be at the top of the food chain in this manner.
So they can be easily crushed by capitalist lobbying in western “”““democracies””".
I admire neolibs who genuinely want to make things better, and you have my respect for that, but I think you’re just a bit naive and haven’t quite thought everything through.
That’s not true. While the USSR did have a significant manufacturing capacity, it was often inefficient due to the planned economy. This led to factories closing after 1991 because they couldn’t compete with the free market. The quality of products was often subpar, and there was a lack of diversity and functionality. In fact, many essential items weren’t even manufactured.
This was a major contributor to the Soviet Union’s economic downfall and eventual collapse. If you read archival records (available through various books, for instance), you’ll find that even high-ranking officials like ministers and vice ministers were writing letters to each other in the 80s about the poor output in their respective sectors, including the oil industry, which was struggling due to outdated technology.
The idea that the Soviet Union had exceptional higher education is a myth. In reality, their education system was overly focused on technical skills, neglecting essential life skills like critical thinking, creativity, decision-making, and many others.
This became apparent in the 90s when many supposedly ‘highly educated’ individuals were involved in fraudulent schemes, failed to build and stand for democracy. While it’s true that the USSR produced some outstanding scientists, that’s where the excellence ended. A society cannot thrive solely on the backs of scientists and enginners. A well-rounded education is essential for prosperity.
The US is the only country in the western world that teaches strictly extra-curricular matters at a university level, afaik. I went to uni in the UK for computer science, all of my classes were only about computer science and it’s subdomains only, there are no “life skills” classes.
As opposed to the low levels of fraud and extremely healthy democracies of which countries exactly?
As for the rest of your claims I would like to see direct sources. The “essential items” tidbit in particular I find suspect because the definition is quite fickle and the idea is subjective and depends on circumstances. Cars were famously not very common amongst USSR citizens. What was though is public transport, and we’re now in the west finding out that neglecting public transport and shifting towards personal vehicles has been a huge mistake, so that’s that.
We get extra curricular in universities in Canada as well
I’d recommend reading some books about the Soviet Union, particularly its later years. It’s not feasible for me to provide an in-depth education on this topic in a single post. It’s clear that you are not knowledgeable, and I’m not sure why you’re arguing without being informed on the subject ¯\_(ツ)_/¯