eh, veganism doesn’t work for my relatively unique anatomy (if I eat that much fiber I go to the hospital) but were it not for that I’d probably be eating a plant based diet. people tend to know what works for them, and i’m not going to judge them for their dietary choices. Except foie gras.
Vegans: exist
People like OP: how dare you make your own choices about your own life that don’t hurt anyone in any way whatsoever
Ah yes, the anti-vegan. Nearly as annoying as the vegan.
I have the same advice for you as I have for vegans: let people eat what they want to eat, mind your business, and keep your preferences to yourself unless you’re asked.
That said there is some irony here because you’re framing this as unreasonable, but we do this all the time with other humans. As an outsider you should treat members of a group differently than they treat each other - unless you’re saying white people should be allowed to drop N bombs lol
I have the same advice for you as I have for vegans: let people eat what they want to eat, mind your business, and keep your preferences to yourself unless you’re asked.
It seems you fundamentally misunderstand what veganism is
Our species were shaped as omnivores, meaning we have a choice of what we want to eat. Don’t forget where we don’t live anymore: the jungle. Just because we used to live in caves doesn’t mean we should live in caves now. Also, they didn’t have McDonald’s in the jungle.
excuse me the children yearn for the mines
First and foremost: You are correct.
Now allow me to try to be funny: Well… Apartments are just pretty square-ish caves.
(Note that I said “try to be funny”)
After the second world war we also said “never again” but apparently some people missed that memo too.
My man cave is so much more sophisticated than caves from the stone age. I have cats, instead of mountain lions. I have some paintings on the wall… Oh wait, no, that’s not much different. I have central heating instead of a camp fire. And I have to pay a ludicrous amount of rent. So yeah, my cave is much better than ancient caves. I guess…
We’re destroying the Amazon for cattle but haha birds eat rodents lmao gottem
Yeah I like meat but that is a stupid argument unless you hunt all your meals yourself.
Where with all the animals if all went vegan now?
Why are the vegans sounding more like cavemen than the meat-eaters?
I think the problem isn’t that we eat meat. It’s that we torture the animals and have them live in deplorable conditions before we eat them. If we all hunted or raised our own animals or had the animals live in decent conditions it would be less of an issue for most REASONABLE vegans and vegetarians. I used to be vegan and vegetarian a decade so I get it a bit. I hated it when anyone would bitch about other people’s food choices, but then complain when they did the same to them for their food choices. Both sides I mean. I had some non-veggies once they found out I didn’t eat meat would attack me for it. When I did start eating meat again some vegans and vegetarians would attack me for it.
I know that the industry is horrific. I have battled internally with becoming a vegan. And this isn’t a but, it’s just something i thought about once when thinking about the argument that whilst in nature, animals eat other animals, its not the same as what we do as we farma dn torture animals to get the meat…
Its cats…
Cats torture their prey…
They play with it, and maim it and keep it alive for as long as possible so they can chase it, for fun…
And sometimes they just fucking leave it there when it dies.
And we love cats. Even vegans love cats.
And that sort of makes me laugh a bit.
Well fed house cats that don’t need to bother eating their prey and don’t necessarily entirely understand hunting will do that.
I wonder if a wildcat in an environment that had plentiful mice would start to do the same?
For me, I think the difference is that I have the means and opportunity to reduce (an incredibly minor amount, I know) the suffering of animals everywhere by not eating meat, so I feel somewhat an obligation to do so.
Whereas a cat does not have the knowledge or information or desire to make that sort of decision making. So I love them anyway…I just don’t let them outside so they can’t murder every living thing nearby for fun.
To each his own, that’s just my personal impetus to be meat free.
that’s what the cats want you to think, dummy!
Yeah, I think this is the big difference. We have the capacity to rationalize and introspect. If we can make a change for the better (and know we can), how do we justify not making it?
Sometimes the reason is “it’s hard” or an apathetic “it doesn’t matter”. But I think it’s very difficult to come to the conclusion that it’s (consumption of meat) the correct thing to do.
I say this as someone who commonly falls into the “it’s tough” bucket.
Actually, humans are animals. Once you view them in that light, the “I don’t want to stop eating meat” becomes “I can’t stop eating meat, because I am actually an animal who believe it is above instinct”.
I feel like this ignores the point many are making here.
The statement that we are animals is true. But as many have pointed out, we have the extra layer of reasoning, introspection, and empathy.
We can see the pain and torture subjected on other animals and reson that it is unjustified and empathise with the pain by thinking about how we would feel if in the shoes of the animals being slaughtered. We can look at outlr actions and decide to make a change.
None of this, as far as we know, is possible for any other animal.
This is a huge distinction and one that, as i said, you have either missed or ignored whilst reading these comments.
Sure, we’re animals. Being able to reason and rationalize sure are something too, though.
An important addition is that saying “we are animals” isn’t supposed to cut what we judge to be morally right or wrong.
If anything, “We are animals” must be used to know that other animals may probably have similar introspection as us and we are unaware, thinking o ourselves as special kind of creature when it is far from being true.
If, let’s say hypothetically, a cow do have not only feelings but also moral thought, thinking of a sacred "cow god/goddess) and having moral argument with fellow cows, then it just makes butchering them even more of a “crime” that it is already.
Most of the time, adults don’t torture their prey. Kittens aren’t born with the ability to hunt, and their instincts need to develop too. So the mom brings home live prey for the kittens to play with. Sometimes adults keep this behaviour.
Yeah I was thinking this kind of thing too, but also house cats have all the food they want anyway. Not sure how much each is a factor in this.
Boredom really.
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Absolutely, the meat industry needs to be clamped down on hard
But, there are plenty of vegans who also rail against alternatives like lab grown beef which is still meat but bypasses all the problems with the meat industry of today
If lab grown meat were readily available and affordable, I would switch in a heartbeat. Unfortunately, I know for a damn fact I dont have the discipline for veganism, bad as the industry is. Also milk and eggs have to be produced somehow no matter what or the animal dies because we bred them like that millennia ago so like might as well eat those anyway
Doesn’t have to be all/nothing. You don’t have to become a vegan, you could still cut down on how much meat you buy. Or only eat what you can kill?
So we domesticated fire, that’s one step out of the swamp and steppes.
Then there was agriculture and animal husbandry, we became sedentary.Writing developed, accelerating growth in the arts, math and engineering, the sciences… we had domesticated knowledge and memory - data storage.
Before we knew it, the printing press popped up and soon after we domesticated something abstract and invisible, awesome and truly fundamental - electromagnetism. That’s is the big game changer right there.
We have figured out our physical place in the universe.
We can image distant supermassive black holes, we have mapped the farthest, faintest reaches of the visible universe using the oldest light there is - the Cosmic Microwave Background (which started out as orange light 13.7 billion years ago).We are now in the process of harnessing sunlight and the wind; the genome; we can now even perform data operations using quantum superimposed electron states, harnessing the subatomic wave function itself.
Surely we can now domesticate cruelty-free protein chemistry. So many steps away from the swamp and steppes already, so far we can’t turn and go back again. What’s one more step?
Next step is extreme longevity IMO. Such a bummer people only have a couple of decades to perfect their skills before it all runs out in the sand.
Get me a lab grown steak any day though!
Lab grown meat is not getting better nor cheaper since a decade, it’s still an ungodly block of stem cells. This is not a political statement, I don’t care if people eat lab grown, but it’s not there yet and to me, it’s off-putting and unnecessary.
Give plant based alternatives a try, there is already a huge variety that differs in taste and texture. Some are okay, some are great. At the moment, capitalism is stuffing it’s pockets with vegan meat money but this stuff is super cheap and easy to make and prices will fall if production numbers go up and there’s even more competition. So no need wait! Choose the food that reduces land use, water pollution and co2 emissions by at least 60%.Ungodly?
Common, get off my lawn.
This is not my native language, I was tying to be funny :)
you cant be cruel to cattle.
Very edgy. Care to elaborate?
The redditization of lemmy.world is finally complete. Congratulations, you have ruined the internet.
This is a reddit as fuck comment. Just have fun. Goddammit
I’m not having fun.
it’s been Reddit bro. as much as some still wanna deny, it was cut from the very same cloth.
I feel like this is the “attack helicopter” joke of veganism
Isn’t that every joke on veganism?
Let the Bullshit Bingo begin!
Well, the first bullshit here is the word “purely”. While they indeed have a mainly vegan diet, they also opportunistically consume insects and even small mammals.
Please fact check before posting, this is scientificaly inaccurate. Yeah they might eat a bug or two, but gorillas normally don’t eat other mammals.
Would it be to say its a herbivore rather than vegan?
Then again, pretty sure most vegans end up eating a few bugs. Would a gorilla choose to eat mouse if presented with one?
Yeah, this is just a vegan meme, no scientific theses. Gorillas sometimes eat a bug or two, and they have been seen eating small animals, but it’s not their usual diet. Look it up, they eat up to 30 kg of plant stuff per day, including leaves, stems, bark, flowers and fruits. That’s petty impressive.
Please fact check before posting
That’s literally here to fact check you, but ok.
https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/what-do-gorillas-eat-and-other-gorilla-facts
however, also have an appetite for termites and ants, and break open termite nests to eat the larvae.
That’s not quite “a bug or two”.
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2828480/
the gorilla population investigated (for which very little observational data are as yet available) may occasionally consume small vertebrates.
https://kabiragorillasafaris.com/do-gorillas-eat-meat
They occasionally consume tiny vertebrates and insects as well.
Next time, check yourself.
Your source:
In addition to consuming a lot of plant matter, gorillas occasionally consume insects. Gorillas are not considered carnivores in the wild, despite the fact that they may consume meat when it is served to them in zoos. Although officially omnivores, gorillas primarily consume plants, including leaves, stems, bark, flowers, and fruits. They occasionally consume tiny vertebrates and insects as well.
If all of humanity started to “occasionally consume tiny vertebrates and insects” while “primarily consuming plants” by tomorrow, which we could, we’d be way better off. Do you agree?
Yes, I’ve read my source. What it says is that Gorillas are NOT purley vegan (which was your statement) while not contradicting anything I said.
Even grazing herbivours, (cows, buffaloes) will occational eat small vertabrets. So not being considered “carnivores in the wild” doesn’t really mean anyhing. You don’t need to be carnivore (or even an omnivore) to not have a “purley vegan” diet.
Which of course makes sense, because animals are opportunistic, not idealistic.
If all of humanity started to “occasionally consume tiny vertebrates and insects” while “primarily consuming plants” by tomorrow, which we could, we’d be way better off. Do you agree?
I certainly wouldn’t, but that wasn’t really the point.
Really, the only “true vegan” animals are probably Pandas and Koalas which is kinda meaningless as well considering they don’t eat anything else other than bamboo and eucalyptus, respectively
Us humans are opportunistic animals as well, which has led to us destroying our global habitat. So we need to change or society will collapse in the not so distant future. There are a lot of things we need to address to survive the next century. The way we eat is one of them. And it’s the easiest, because you don’t have to get off your ass and protest, you don’t have to buy an expensive EV, you just change a habit and stop buying the destructive food next time your shop at the supermarket. You choose the food that saves ⅔ land use, waterpollution and co2-emissions. That’s my point.
That makes sense.
My point was soley about Gorillas not having a purley vegan diet.
Preach. This is why every Mr. Olympia is filled to the brim, just like non-vegan dudes’ wives, with vegans. Boom. Nothing but power and rightness and winning. Bigger, stronger, smarter, righter, and better at internet discourse.
The bit about non-vegans wives fucking sent me, little fucked we (people) joke about adultury as an own tho
Where with all the animals if all went vegan now?
Why are the vegans sounding more like cavemen than the meat-eaters?
The human brain is fueled by about 20% of your caloric intake. We’re evolved to be omnivorous. This isn’t prescriptive but descriptive. It’s going to take development to make vegan food delicious and something we want to eat (and then all the other features we want out of food: cheap, storage-safe, easy to prepare, etc.)
For those of us who still eat a meat diet, it usually takes a chef to make something actually enjoyable from strictly vegetables. Otherwise, we’re used to receiving oddly-spiced bland mush from our vegan friends. But we could do better if we were putting billions into it, and not another more-addictive cheeto.
But we live entrenched in capitalism, so no one is going to take this seriously until we’re already dropping dead from natural disasters and famine.
For those of us who still eat a meat diet, it usually takes a chef to make something actually enjoyable from strictly vegetables.
chop brussels sprouts in half, toss with avocado oil with some salt and pepper, and air fry for 15-20 mins. toss some balsamic on em after they’re done.
Which is delicious! There are a number of things that are edible. But let me clarify…
In most of the households I lived in with others, I just needed to wait less than a month before the women around wanted flesh and blood. Neither spinach (which has the iron they crave) nor tofu (high protein) cut it.
And in the public, the mere smell of fast food burgers keeps them coming in. As long as dead animal flesh can be sold, it will be, and we don’t regulate it. (Yes, in India, cows are sacred, but chickens and goats certainly are not)
There are plenty of individual dishes that are fine. But if you want well rounded nutrition, eventually you’re going to be resorting to the few high-protein things that are either uninteresting or a bitch to prepare.
Now mind you, my kitchen savvy is limited. I’m learning, but slowly.
Feels like the goalposts just moved.
For those of us who still eat a meat diet, it usually takes a chef to make something actually enjoyable from strictly vegetables.
This is a joke, right? Have you ever tried pasta? Rice? Fruit?
Edit: ramen, PB&J, Oreos, potatoes
The skills you need to make vegetables taste good are the same as the skills you need to make meat taste good. I really hope you aren’t just, like, boiling chicken breasts and eating them unseasoned
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Oreos are famously vegan. There’s some dispute about the ethics of buying products with palm oil, and some sugar suppliers might use bone char to filter sugar, but the ingredients don’t necessarily include any animal products
No idea what you are talking about. I’m not even vegan, but I can make a delicious vegan meal without even trying. All my vegan friends make very tasty food, too. No need for billions.
I have no question that everyone across the industrialized world would gladly switch to your delicious recipes.
Maybe you should start a business!
Wow, I asked for the bullshit and you seriously delivered! Not sure if I should take the time to reply to this, because would it even matter?
One thing, though: Everything you eat is vegan, except for the animal tissue, the milk-stuff and eggs. We don’t need capitalism to invest in more vegan meat alternatives, we fight it by eating plant based! No junk, just delicious fruits, nuts, legumes and vegetables, like we always did. It’s cheap, great for your body and for our suffering planet as well!
Omnivores? We were lucky apes who found out that fire kills enough parasites and bacteria that live in meat. Dogs are the real omnivores, pigs are, too. They eat a rotting squirrel if the feel like it! We die if our bleach-cleaned chicken filet wasn’t in the freezer for a couple of hours.
Do you know what elephants and hippos eat all day … damn, I just started replying.The human brain is fueled by about 20% of your caloric intake.
That explains most of shit vegans spread.
In light of the west’s heavily animal-centric diets resulting in most of the top causes of death in these places, it’s not exactly accurate to call us omnivores. The centered on whole plant foods our diets are, the better off we are. Animal flesh, dairy, and eggs, at the very least, cannot be consumed without increasing progression and risk of cardiovascular disease and diabetes (Ignoring a host of other harmful effects like cancer and autoimmune disorders, which is more contentious).
It would be more accurate to say that we are primarily herbivores, but with an incomplete and dangerous emergency system for omnivory.
Let’s put it this way, our bodies really like the smell, taste and mouthfeel of meat. So long as our system is focused on compelling people to eat via yummy food, there’s going to be a market for it. It’s not prescription, just description.
That’s why I was saying we’ll have to overcome capitalism before we can really beat this. Otherwise actual balanced nutrition will be a < checks spelling > commodifiable feature of food, rather than its essential point.
Estimates have it that in the industrial world, somewhere between 1-5% of people are vegan. That remaining the same until your preferred revolution happens, and your idealized form of governance becomes the reality everywhere: how is your socioeconomic system going to get the remaining 95% of billions of people to stop consuming, committing cruelty to, and exploiting animals? Sorry, but we have to do whatever we can in the here and now, and there is urgency in time. It’s not only a matter of morality. We know that our wanton animal consumption is one of the largest drivers of climate change. We know that our society’s addiction to flesh and secretions have resulted in agricultural systems that not only resulted in one recent pandemic, but we are hanging on the edge of an even worse flu pandemic that can end up happening at any time. 75% of new infectious diseases have a zoonotic origin.
In a world where ideal society has never happened and is always a dream away, we do not have the luxury of an either/or approach of fixing one problem before we think about the next.
The toxic food environment is a reality, and that needs to be fixed in policy. But individual choice matters too, because what we choose to buy is what drives what is sold. Taste is dynamic and subjective. New diets are only temporarily less satisfying until the person develops the knowledge, cooking skills, and palate to start getting more satisfaction out of their foods. Even better, the difference in the way people feel when they adopt a whole-food plant-based diet for even as little as a couple of weeks, is a start contrast to the standard western diet. Experiencing the difference first-hand generates more motivation to continue.
Also, our bodies do not inherently like the smell, taste, and mouthfeel of animal flesh. That is a learned habit. When a person goes long enough without consuming flesh, the very smell of it changes - even the freshest meats smell rotten, and the people who eat these foods smell like rotting corpses.
I’m not saying you’re wrong, but our elite class seems determined to stay there, and historically violent revolution is what unseats them and allows their wealth to be redistributed from their Scrooge McDuck vaults.
Nonviolent resistance might work, but we haven’t seen the kind of mass wealth dispersion that will be necessary.
And the elite are content to drive us right into extinction via the climate crisis and the plastic crisis. Even if you make technology that disrupts the meat market, they’re going to legally wrest control of it from you (unless you are rich enough to defend it from Nestlé). Regardless, when it comes to the climate crisis, the deal is done. The pooch is screwed. We know after the collapse the upper limit of sustainable population will be about one billion, and that number dwindles with each day of inaction.
Meanwhile the industrial world is choosing far-right parties over the usual neoliberal crap we’ve endured through the latter half of the twentieth century, so we’re not even serious about managing the climate crisis without the aforementioned revolution (and in that case, into some kind of communal government, since the typical outcome of a people’s revolution is a chain of dictators).
Good luck convincing our officials, elected or not, to choose veganism over the meat industry, or even nutrition over junk food. You will need all you can get.
So be the change, Uriel238! You are against suffering, slavery and destruction of our resources? Against the greedy elite who brutaly and recklessly exploit the weak instead of protecting them? (See what I did there?)
Stop paying for dead animal parts next time you’re shopping at the supermarket! It feels really good to not take part in this evil system of misery and annihilation.
I know veganism is not the only solution, but no solution will ever be enough without it. Plus it’s the easiest Fuck You to the ruling class, while we wait for a revolution.Dude, I already have doubts if I am worth my footprint, if we’re going to think in transactional terms. It’s easy to decide if cutting out meat is the only way I can make a difference, then why not cut out everything else as well? Should people kill themselves in order to spare nature the cost of their upkeep?
When we talk about the generation of greenhouse gasses, and the rising global average temperature, companies pollute in a day (in some cases, an hour) what humans produce across their lifetime. US suicides (49,000 per year, as of 2022, and rising with hate-crime and rampage killing rates) are barely a blip.
Maybe folks in the alt-right believe that human lives, at least the ones they don’t like, are worth less than the resources they consume, but a lot more believe the lives are worth the food and poop, which is, again, insignificant to the ever-burning fires of industry.
Quitting meat doesn’t stick it to the man in any significant way, any more than self immolation does.
Humans “i dont rape because i respect other humans”. Meanwhile nature …
And in before “but i need to eat”, you dont need to eat animal products. You can have a healthy life with a vegan diet, arguably an even healthier life. And to go back to my original point, just because you need to cum, doesnt mean that you have the right to cause suffering and death to other sentient beings.
Just masturbate. Just go vegan.
But what about my sharp canine teeth? Check mate.
perfect for biting into a nice thick crusty on the outside, chewy on the inside sourdough roll
I’m not your waiter, and this isn’t Australia
Oh, then, whatever you say when you win checkers 😎
Look at this carnivore devouring their prey.
I 100% agree with you, that the existence of canine teeth does not mean that we must eat meat, but pandas are famously bad at living. The species only exists at this point because humans think they’re cute
Panda’s are omnivores tho
From all the animals thst feed only on plants and have huge canines, you chose the bear?
Those are to hold on to your victim more tightly
Telling boys to just go masturbate got us the Immorten Joe’s Warboys † that are the alt-right, that got Trump into power twice. The boys we told to literally go fuck themselves when they raged over their sexual frustration got us the army of militants and voters behind the white Christian nationalist movement. I was among them in the 1980s, when the society gave a meager few more fucks about them than they do in the twenty-first century.
I suspect similar movements exist through Europe, which is generally rejecting neoliberalism for fascist-thick movements towards one-party autocracy.
No, I don’t have a solution, and I’ve been working on it for thirty years. Christianity’s proscription against sex (later limited to non-reproductive sex) figures largely into the problem and it’s served so far as a sufficient distraction from class consciousness and effective response to industry’s effect on climate, and the imminent climate crisis.
We don’t have a way to let our young guys sow their wild oats, while we’re careening towards multiple great filters we are unprepared to navigate.
I know: 🧶📌📇
Maybe even: 🐰🎩🫖☕
And yet, very few people think about it, still. Those who do ponder the angry-young-men problem discount them as ineligible or feel they are too repugnant to civilized folk to consider. I’ve heard otherwise rational content creators actually say (I paraphrase) these guys were mistreated as kids and are now a societal problem. But they suck, so fuck those guys.
It might be a failing of the human species itself, that we are compelled to cast our young men out the way gorillas cast out their adolescent females (but welcome strange females), and capitalism intentionally only has limited seats where they can pick themselves up, so the system teaches them from the beginning to be aggressive, ruthless and transactional. Not to get completely nihilist, but maybe our capacity for civilization is limited and we just can’t overcome the paradigms that served us as migratory bands of hunter-gatherers.
In the meantime, our boys are taught they suck in our Christianity-heavy abstinence-only sex-ed, ‡ from which they descend into the incel movement, the manosphere, gamergaters, etc and from there into the transnational white power movement. Our society gave Trump his instant army, and it was ready for him the moment Trump went into politics. And our lack of interest or concern about the new batch of warboys we churn our from the US education system every year, is going to literally kill us all.
Just go vegan is going to end the same way, especially since the food industry cares not about actual nutrition but profit. Taking a page from Fourth International Posadism, we may have to end capitalism before we can create an ethical food production system (probably incorporating farming invertebrates as well as vegetables), but the problem right now is not what’s the end result ( Fully Automated Gay Space Communism ) but how the heck we get there and not crash and burn with the global ecology.
Totally open to ideas, but I’m not the guy you have to convince.
† Not to be confused with Warboyz of W4K fame.
‡ Twenty six states mandate abstinence-only sex ed, that stuff that teaches girls they are chewing gum, or someother one-use safety-sealed metaphor, and that boys aren’t allowed to think about sex until they have a salaried job and a ring. Seriously, this is still what is taught.
Three states mandate comprehensive sex ed: The west coast. And none of them require discussion of consent. (Some teachers include it anyway, as an elective topic). Of course, if we demanded opt-in consent in our sexual relationships, we might demand opt-in sex in our other contracts as well, say our jobs, our devices, our software, etc.
Am I supposed to read more than a sentence of this
Not if you don’t want to. Maybe you think I’m wrong after a couple of sentences. That’s okay. The majority of American voters voted for an autocratic usurper. We can’t expect everyone to get it or care.
Lost my interest after scrolling down to see a footnote about Warhammer.
Don’t forget where we came from and what shaped us as species
I don’t think anyone argues that we should live solely eating meat
I think you have managed to completely change the subject in a single comment.
The survival of the fittest narrative was debunked almost as soon as it existed, and that debunking is what forms the ideological basis of mutual aid. That people continue to spread this toxic misinformation over a century later is a testament to the unfortunate tenacity of lies.
Even in the most brutal depths of the natural world, cooperation is still the overarching basis of ecosystem health. It’s known in Permaculture, for instance, that too much competition results in resource depletions.
A vegan ethic is inline with a growing awareness and need for us all to learn to expand our capacities of empathy and compassion, from those who are most like us, to those who are most unlike us.
On the topic of wilderness areas, vegans are divided on what the right approaches are. Some of us compare natural biomes to sovereign nations - while we dislike the harms that occur in those places, we feel a need to allow other species their independence to have their self-determination, if for no other reason than the fact that nature is the basis of maintaining a habitable planet, and interference in ecosystems should only be done with the utmost care.
But there are other vegans who do believe strongly that we should be intervening in wild places as well, with the goals of eliminating predation all together, and managing wildlife populations in more ethical ways.
It’s a highly contentious topic to be honest.
“fittest” in “survival of the fittest” doesn’t mean strongest or most dominant.
It means “best adapted”.
It can be rephrased as “the species most likely to survive are those best adapted to their environment”So it wasn’t really debunked, per se, the strange perversion of “alpha” survival was debunked. Mutual aid is absolutely an excellent environmental adaptation that leads to survival.
