Forgot how Pro-drug the fediverse is as well; vapes should be regulated as heavily as cigarettes and other tobacco products. Just because it’s less harmful doesn’t mean it’s not harmful.
The laws around vapes are nonsense and pseudoscience.
Recognising that there are health issues, without fully understanding them yet due to there having not been enough time to form complete and solid conclusions, doesn’t make it pseudoscience. It means we should be cautious and continue to study, and certainly not widely adopt their use in the mean time assuming everything will be fine. Especially as it directly interacts with such a sensitive part of our inner bodies, and especially as the largest group taking up their use are teenagers.
Flat prohibitions aren’t saving any lives or ending any health crisis. Meanwhile cigarettes are widely available with a dozen flavors.
I disagree, to blanket suggest prohibitions don’t save lives is not based in fact. Even the misguided alcohol prohibition over in the USA saved lives, reducing the number of deaths that would have otherwise been caused by intoxication (dangerous driving being an obvious example, domestic abuse, etc).
And take this example from literally only yesterday, where a child almost died due to electronic cigarettes and the complications therein (often when people discuss the danger of X and Y, they assume a completely healthy person to begin with, and ignore that a large percentage of the population has at least one illness or environmental factor that it can complicate).
Also, yes cigarettes are available, but their use in public is heavily restricted, and they aren’t attractive to young people any more thanks to decades of hard work in education. Electronic cigarettes however are targeted directly at teenagers in a very predatory way, suggested to be safe and clean, and thus we have these new issues.
In the end, I suspect electronic cigarettes are less dangerous than breathing in smoke from tobacco, which is insanely dangerous, but that will not make them safe, either, and the cumulative effects of electronic cigarette use over decades simply isn’t fully known yet.
We’re working on it, and where our health is concerned, especially that of our impressionable youth, an abundance of caution is always the best course of action.
I was under the impression that prohibition of alcohol did not reduce any harm, because people flocked to speakeasys, and the quality of the homemade alcohol was not good. A good chunk of the alcohol beverages people drank during prohibition would give them poisoning of some kind.
People didn’t stop drinking, they just started drinking homemade alcohol made with industrial alcohol. The US government also made sure that the only kind of alcohol people could aquire to make drinks was not good for human consumption.
Your comment is the first time I’ve ever heard anybody say anything good about prohibition. Maybe it saved a few people, like you said, but overall alcohol related deaths probably stayed around the same, or even went up thanks to all the poisoning. It’s hard to tell, because the US didn’t keep track of these numbers at the time.
you’re very wrong. Prohibition ONLY means lower quality, more dangerous products on the streets and it’s another excuse to criminalize poverty/mental illness.
Yawn. Prohibition is not about protecting youths, its about protecting income. Your conclusions regarding the supposed benefits of prohibition are largely opinion, a generally refuted by historians. Flat bans produce unregulated markets, which lead to excess death and injury.
How exactly are they bad for you? Where’s the studies? You gotta be 21 to buy them, at least in the US. I quit smoking and use vapes exclusively and I can tell a huge difference in how I feel and breathe
Yeah I was about to say, I quit smoking like 10 years ago. Then due to stressful situations and poor decisions making skills, I began vaping (I want to quit, fuck past me). I 100% know for a fact my lungs are way worse than before. Not as bad as when I was smoking a pack and a half a day, but I play guitar and sing often. It’s noticable.
There’s multiple completed ten-year studies on vaporizer use available with pretty high N. More frequent sickness and lung injury are shown to raise demonstrably over a five to ten year use period. It’s less pronounced than cigarette smoking, but it is an unhealthy choice.
So you’re breathing slightly less toxic gas and therefore clearly it’s great and good for you.
Absolutely zero logic.
I’m not going to try and find the studies for you because I’m on a phone right now, you can go Google it if you’re actually interested, not that you will, but be assured the studies are out there otherwise they wouldn’t be talking about regulation.
Ah the classic except it isn’t on me because my claim isn’t extraordinary, your claim is your claim is that in taking toxic gases is not bad for you that’s the extraordinary claim the onus is on you to back it.
Vaping should be limited to 18+ consumers just like “standard” nicotine products. But we shouldn’t pretend, like the WHO and other organizations do, that Vaping hasn’t been used by many (myself included) to effectively quit nicotine. Personally I kicked a 2 pack a day habit because of vaping and today I use no nicotine products (including vaping) because of it.
I quit smoking cigarettes using a “box mod” in 2016 and gradually tapered down from a very high nicotine blend to 0 nicotine using 100% vegetable glycerin and peppermint flavoring and then I finally literally lost my vape and just never bothered to replace it…
So anyways, I started smoking over 30 years ago and I don’t vape or smoke anymore.
We need stricter regulations on the production of disposables or ingredients. Like, using diacetyl which is known to cause popcorn lung. Or the whole vitamin E oil causing lung disease in black market vapes…
Maybe something similar to the regulations around alcohol. We know alcohol is bad, but the long term effects are much different than going blind from methanol.
Smoking or vaping isn’t good long term, but it shouldn’t be able to kill your lungs after a few uses.
While the popcorn lung and vitamin e oil shit were both real they were not truly widespread problems and they were already regulated /legislated against.
That was a problem with black market and unregulated Vape production, especially in the early days. It was never widespread, it just happened in a few places where people were buying vape products off of some random guy on the street. This was mostly a problem when this stuff first came out, because there wasn’t a lot of legitimate companies making the vape juice and cartridges at first.
I do agree that we need regulation on the disposable vapes just for the amount of trash that they create. Disposables are so much worse for the environment than refillable vapes.
If it’s less harmful why on earth should it be regulated just as heavily?
Of course I agree it shouldn’t be sold to kids, but what the EU did to vaping is a massive shit show.
I quitted smoking overnight thanks to vaping and then also stopped vaping a few years later. That was before the regulations though. I honestly don’t believe I could pull this off today with all the braindead rules and let’s not forget the massive price increase for liquids.
What’s too heavy about how cigarettes are regulated in your country? I’m in Canada and when I smoked cigarettes I never felt like I was obstructed in making my own choices.
Many mundane things are less harmful than cigarettes and shouldn’t be regulated as heavily
Why not? We regulate the shit out of food and medicine and those are the exact opposite of harmful when everything goes as planned.
vapes should be regulated as heavily as cigarettes
My comment referred to this quote. It’s a comparison between how heavy two things are regulated. Neither needs to be heavily regulated for this comparison to work.
What’s too heavy about how cigarettes are regulated in your country? I’m in Canada and when I smoked cigarettes I never felt like I was obstructed in making my own choices.
I’m fine with how cigarretes are regulated in Germany. Could be still heavier. I’m not fine with regulating vapes as heavy. Especially taxes.
It’s ridiculous when vaping becomes more expensive than smoking. This creates incentive to quit vaping and smoke. Should be reversed.
Many mundane things are less harmful than cigarettes and shouldn’t be regulated as heavily
Why not? We regulate the shit out of food and medicine and those are the exact opposite of harmful when everything goes as planned.
That’s two different kinds of regulation. You’re referring to regulations to make things safer. These are great.
I was talking about regulations to make things less accessible. These are great if the things are dangerous.
It makes sense to make things less accessible which are more dangerous.
Forgot how Pro-drug the fediverse is as well; vapes should be regulated as heavily as cigarettes and other tobacco products. Just because it’s less harmful doesn’t mean it’s not harmful.
The laws around vapes are nonsense and pseudoscience. That’s what really pisses people off.
Flat prohibitions aren’t saving any lives or ending any health crisis. Meanwhile cigarettes are widely available with a dozen flavors.
Recognising that there are health issues, without fully understanding them yet due to there having not been enough time to form complete and solid conclusions, doesn’t make it pseudoscience. It means we should be cautious and continue to study, and certainly not widely adopt their use in the mean time assuming everything will be fine. Especially as it directly interacts with such a sensitive part of our inner bodies, and especially as the largest group taking up their use are teenagers.
I disagree, to blanket suggest prohibitions don’t save lives is not based in fact. Even the misguided alcohol prohibition over in the USA saved lives, reducing the number of deaths that would have otherwise been caused by intoxication (dangerous driving being an obvious example, domestic abuse, etc).
And take this example from literally only yesterday, where a child almost died due to electronic cigarettes and the complications therein (often when people discuss the danger of X and Y, they assume a completely healthy person to begin with, and ignore that a large percentage of the population has at least one illness or environmental factor that it can complicate).
https://www.bbc.com/news/health-67081855
Also, yes cigarettes are available, but their use in public is heavily restricted, and they aren’t attractive to young people any more thanks to decades of hard work in education. Electronic cigarettes however are targeted directly at teenagers in a very predatory way, suggested to be safe and clean, and thus we have these new issues.
In the end, I suspect electronic cigarettes are less dangerous than breathing in smoke from tobacco, which is insanely dangerous, but that will not make them safe, either, and the cumulative effects of electronic cigarette use over decades simply isn’t fully known yet.
We’re working on it, and where our health is concerned, especially that of our impressionable youth, an abundance of caution is always the best course of action.
Thank you for taking the time to develop a well thought response. I learned some things and it got me thinking in a new way!
I was under the impression that prohibition of alcohol did not reduce any harm, because people flocked to speakeasys, and the quality of the homemade alcohol was not good. A good chunk of the alcohol beverages people drank during prohibition would give them poisoning of some kind.
People didn’t stop drinking, they just started drinking homemade alcohol made with industrial alcohol. The US government also made sure that the only kind of alcohol people could aquire to make drinks was not good for human consumption.
Your comment is the first time I’ve ever heard anybody say anything good about prohibition. Maybe it saved a few people, like you said, but overall alcohol related deaths probably stayed around the same, or even went up thanks to all the poisoning. It’s hard to tell, because the US didn’t keep track of these numbers at the time.
I’m more worried about the shit in the air around me than what is in my vape juice. At least I know what’s in that
you’re very wrong. Prohibition ONLY means lower quality, more dangerous products on the streets and it’s another excuse to criminalize poverty/mental illness.
Yawn. Prohibition is not about protecting youths, its about protecting income. Your conclusions regarding the supposed benefits of prohibition are largely opinion, a generally refuted by historians. Flat bans produce unregulated markets, which lead to excess death and injury.
Maybe both should have restrictions?
Well they are bad for you so it’s not exactly pseudo science, and the problem is that kids are using them.
Vapes come in candy flavour which is ridiculous, not because it exists, but because is sold to children.
At the very least I think we should say that you have to be at least what 18 to buy them. I don’t think that’s too bad.
How exactly are they bad for you? Where’s the studies? You gotta be 21 to buy them, at least in the US. I quit smoking and use vapes exclusively and I can tell a huge difference in how I feel and breathe
I’ve been vaping for 10 years and you’re kidding me with this right? Of course it’s not good for you.
Yeah I was about to say, I quit smoking like 10 years ago. Then due to stressful situations and poor decisions making skills, I began vaping (I want to quit, fuck past me). I 100% know for a fact my lungs are way worse than before. Not as bad as when I was smoking a pack and a half a day, but I play guitar and sing often. It’s noticable.
Just because it isn’t good for you doesn’t mean it is bad for you
In this case yes, it absolute does. But justify it however you need.
Do you think inhaling anything besides air on a regular basis could possibly be good for your lungs?
There’s multiple completed ten-year studies on vaporizer use available with pretty high N. More frequent sickness and lung injury are shown to raise demonstrably over a five to ten year use period. It’s less pronounced than cigarette smoking, but it is an unhealthy choice.
So you’re breathing slightly less toxic gas and therefore clearly it’s great and good for you.
Absolutely zero logic.
I’m not going to try and find the studies for you because I’m on a phone right now, you can go Google it if you’re actually interested, not that you will, but be assured the studies are out there otherwise they wouldn’t be talking about regulation.
Fuck that, you made a claim and the onus on you is to back it up.
Ah the classic except it isn’t on me because my claim isn’t extraordinary, your claim is your claim is that in taking toxic gases is not bad for you that’s the extraordinary claim the onus is on you to back it.
Quote me where I made that claim, much less any claim at all, go ahead.
The only comment I have in this entire thread is calling you out about your “you google it” bs.
Where did I say vapes are good for you? Still don’t see any links to any studies. They’re better than cigarettes, period.
Vaping should be limited to 18+ consumers just like “standard” nicotine products. But we shouldn’t pretend, like the WHO and other organizations do, that Vaping hasn’t been used by many (myself included) to effectively quit nicotine. Personally I kicked a 2 pack a day habit because of vaping and today I use no nicotine products (including vaping) because of it.
Agreed.
More restrictions is uncalled for.
I quit smoking cigarettes using a “box mod” in 2016 and gradually tapered down from a very high nicotine blend to 0 nicotine using 100% vegetable glycerin and peppermint flavoring and then I finally literally lost my vape and just never bothered to replace it…
So anyways, I started smoking over 30 years ago and I don’t vape or smoke anymore.
We need stricter regulations on the production of disposables or ingredients. Like, using diacetyl which is known to cause popcorn lung. Or the whole vitamin E oil causing lung disease in black market vapes…
Maybe something similar to the regulations around alcohol. We know alcohol is bad, but the long term effects are much different than going blind from methanol.
Smoking or vaping isn’t good long term, but it shouldn’t be able to kill your lungs after a few uses.
While the popcorn lung and vitamin e oil shit were both real they were not truly widespread problems and they were already regulated /legislated against.
Those people broke the fucking law.
More regulations don’t prevent lawbreakers.
That was a problem with black market and unregulated Vape production, especially in the early days. It was never widespread, it just happened in a few places where people were buying vape products off of some random guy on the street. This was mostly a problem when this stuff first came out, because there wasn’t a lot of legitimate companies making the vape juice and cartridges at first.
I do agree that we need regulation on the disposable vapes just for the amount of trash that they create. Disposables are so much worse for the environment than refillable vapes.
Shouldn’t that be an argument to regulate it less, not “as heavily”?
Many mundane things are less harmful than cigarettes and shouldn’t be regulated as heavily.
Edit: typo
yup zero logic in his comment, still has 30 upvotes right now.
I mean what I said reflects reality, is that so troubling for you?
If it’s less harmful why on earth should it be regulated just as heavily? Of course I agree it shouldn’t be sold to kids, but what the EU did to vaping is a massive shit show.
I quitted smoking overnight thanks to vaping and then also stopped vaping a few years later. That was before the regulations though. I honestly don’t believe I could pull this off today with all the braindead rules and let’s not forget the massive price increase for liquids.
I agree it should be regulated. But that’s not what’s happening. What’s happening is prohibition.
What’s too heavy about how cigarettes are regulated in your country? I’m in Canada and when I smoked cigarettes I never felt like I was obstructed in making my own choices.
Why not? We regulate the shit out of food and medicine and those are the exact opposite of harmful when everything goes as planned.
My comment referred to this quote. It’s a comparison between how heavy two things are regulated. Neither needs to be heavily regulated for this comparison to work.
I’m fine with how cigarretes are regulated in Germany. Could be still heavier. I’m not fine with regulating vapes as heavy. Especially taxes.
It’s ridiculous when vaping becomes more expensive than smoking. This creates incentive to quit vaping and smoke. Should be reversed.
That’s two different kinds of regulation. You’re referring to regulations to make things safer. These are great.
I was talking about regulations to make things less accessible. These are great if the things are dangerous.
It makes sense to make things less accessible which are more dangerous.
I’d ban cigarettes and legalise heroin
fuck vapes and drug abuse in general, but the fedi isn’t pro fucking anything. Just because you see a pattern doesn’t mean it’s there.