despite what “free speech” absolutists would like to believe, the vast majority of the world does not wish to tolerate hate, racism, and bigotry. refusing to accept these is not suppression, it’s maintaining healthy and welcoming communities.
it’s no different than swimming pools having a basic “no shitting in the pool” policy. if you want to shit in the pool, you are going to have to go swim with others that are ok with swimming in shitty water.
with that said, I hear exploding-heads may be what you’re looking for
Isn’t that a quote about Issac Newton?
“If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear”
I personally believe that a community that support free speech is going to be healthier on the long run than one that doesn’t.
exploding-heads seem to have rules against not being authentic, trolling and slurs
You should read about the paradox of tolerance and why free speech should be limited to what doesn’t hurt or limit others’ access to freedom.
Being able to trash talk minorities (completely random example obviously) is not free speech, it’s hate speech that will ultimately devolve into atrocities.Also, please share the kind of things that you think should be allowed without naming them (in full details like “racist slurs”, or “calls to violence against a minority”, or “cryptoscams”) , I think it could be interesting.
Censorship is also a gateway to disasters and history is filled with examples. I cannot read french but i can understand that your instance has rules against trolling. I have been accused of being a troll by some in this thread so if i was in your instance i could technically have been censored.
Their rule agains slurs obviously isn’t enforced considering it’s full of anti-trans slurs and “jokes” about trans folk killing themselves.
Do you really think that a community that’s full of nothing but hate and amazing posts like “why do women disrespect or avoid nice guys and go for the players and bad boys” is gonna be healthier long-term than one that fosters respectful discussion?
Censorship doesn’t promote discussion, it goes against it. I’m not looking for a community where only hate is allowed, i’m looking for instances that support free speech.
Allowing hate also kills discussion - I don’t see particularly many trans users joining in with the “fun” over on exploding heads, for example.
Every single “free speech” website ends up turning into a hateful circlejerky echo chamber where discussion that doesn’t align with the agenda is shut down hard.
That’s the irony. “Free speech” platforms are some of the most locked-down, censored places.
Um… Orwell was talking about speaking truth to power, not spreading lies and vitriol.
And when you start banning speech arbitrarily to “protect people” you are creating the mechanisms by which government can prevent “speaking truth to power”.
For example look at the pandemic and the “truth” fact-checks by the big social media companies. Sure nobody cares now because they were censoring anti-vax loonies but next think you know there’s a popular leftist movement and it’s designated as dangerous and censored by force across the internet- using same mechanisms built during COVID.
We cannot give an inch to the government. Every overstep is power they will never give up willingly again.
I’m unsure what your point is. Are you talking about social media companies, or are you talking about the government? Because free speech is about censorship from the government, not private corporations
Federal government pressured social media companies to do this. It was all in the name of fighting misinformation. Which again - is fine now but it doesn’t take much imagination to see how this can go wrong should the wrong person be elected.
Large monopolistic companies are in many ways extensions of the state.
Lies and vitriol according to whom?
what kinda “lies” and “vitriol” you wishing to say?
It doesn’t mean people have to listen to what you’re telling them, and it certainly doesn’t mean that if someone doesn’t want to hear it you have a duty to say it. Cowards afraid of personal responsibility use this argument.
If any rules at all, particularly ones about no trolling or slurs, bother you than you don’t want freedom of speech at all. You want freedom from consequences for your speech. Grow up.
Nobody is forcing you to follow this thread. What I’m looking for is stated in the title: a list of instances that support free speech
Sorry, I thought thought I had the right to tell you what you didn’t want to hear.
Go back to Twitter. You obviously don’t recognize freedom of speech when it’s happening right infront of you.
OP: “I want free speech”
Also OP: “Pls go away with ur free speech”
Uh as you pointed out free speech means you are required to interact with opinions you find offensive.
Are you saying you don’t support free speech, snowflake? If you do you’ll stay in this thread.
Most instances do. What do you feel like you cant say?
Science.
Doesn’t seem true, most instances have a long list or rules and doesn’t seem to tolerate basic slurs
basic slurs
😂
Something tells me bro doesn’t really mean the f-word
Eh depends on which f-word you’re referring to. They definitely don’t seem like they’re trying to find an instance that lets them say “fuck” though…
Is free speech just the ability to say slurs?
Maybe free speech is bad then.
doesn’t seem to tolerate basic slurs
A lot of them do! You can find the list here
Man with the meme after my own heart there.
Is that supposed to be a dead link?
doesn’t seem to tolerate basic slurs
You say that like it’s a bad thing.
If you want to use slurs, go back to Reddit
doesn’t seem to tolerate basic slurs
🤨📸
doesn’t seem to tolerate basic slurs
The horror…
Removed by mod
Those aren’t slurs. Slurs by definition denigrate an group of people at the same time as the person addressed, by saying, essentially, “You are an X and that is had because being X is bad.”
One word: imbecile.
You are violating lemmy.ml rules. I’m not reporting you because i believe in free speech and i believe your comment added something to the discussion but someone else may report you and you could get banned
I reported myself just now. Let us see what is going to happen.
I don’t care about you all discussing slurs but calling each other slurs crosses the line. Keep it about the discussion.
Wee woo wee woo
Oh here we go lol
Removed by mod
That begs the question of what slurs you feel you wish to say, and then why you want to say them?
I’m not looking to saying any particular slurs, i’m looking for a list of instances that support free speech. Lemmy.world doesn’t seem to do that as they censor even swear words
Unless you’re clear on what speech you feel is missing, you’re not going to get an answer.
deleted by creator
Which slurs are your favorites? I’m curious. Maybe if you’re specific I can recommend a good instance for you.
I don’t have favorite slurs and i’m not looking to insult anyone. I was wondering if there’s a list of lemmy instances that support free speech
yeah sure, just reply to my comment with a list of the things you want to be able to say that you cant say here and ill point you in the right direction.
I would like to reply to all sort of comment and idea according to free speech
yeah yeah yeah I hear you, but what im asking you is: what is it exactly that you want to say, that you apparently can’t say here?
personally, I have said everything I want to say and have had zero problems. free speech up the wazoo, ya know?
The instance you are in pawb.social for example have rules against cryptocurrencies, nfts and “misinformation”
yeah I dont really care to talk about crypto, nfts, and misinformation there. Im more there to look at cute furries and technology.
there are other spaces for those things, and if I wanted to post misinformation id undelete my Facebook account.
you haven’t answered the question lol.
I would like to reply to all sort of comment and idea according to free speech
in case you missed it
Until you actually clarify everyone is going to assume you’re mad that you can’t say the n-word and are a huge bigot.
EDIT: at this point, even if you clarify, I personally will assume you’re just covering your ass
ah you misunderstant, let me be more clear.
what exactly is it that you wish to say/post that you cannot do here, in this comment section?
Do you have some understanding problems? I created this thread asking if there’s a list of instances that support free speech, what i would like to reply in general i already said to you two times
Ah, do you mean “hate speech”?
Free speech isn’t some magic phrase that exists in a vacuum. All online communities have restrictions on what can be said (most basically, violent threats as an example). Say whatever you want, but be ready to accept those consequences.
Maybe this is a bad assumption, but I would guess you’re from the US (like me). Our First Amendment protects our speech from “Government Interference” (still not totally true, but w/e). Free Speech doesn’t mean consequence free speech in various spaces.
Regardless, you admitted earlier you’re upset you can’t use slurs so this is probably falling on deaf ears…
In the same vein as “States rights to do what?”, I want to ask: Free speech to say what?
You know, the really important part of free speech.
deleted by creator
This should be the standard response to the “free speech” screechers. Free speech to say what, motherfuckers?
And don’t let them dodge the question. If they don’t answer with specifics then you know exactly what they want “free speech” for.
There cannot be “free speech” instances because every instance (or more generally speaking: any online community) I am aware of that claims to be “free speech” ends up being an alt-right echo chamber, a platform for hate speech, or a site to share questionable pornographic content.
Unfortunately you need moderation if your Internet platform is open to the public.
The people who make these posts looking for “free speech” are really looking for no consequence speech. They like to pretend they’re fans of the town square but ignore the fact that people can get run out of the town square, they can get shouted down in the town square, and they can get drowned out by the others in the town square.
They want to be able to say hateful things without being accountable for their hate. That’s not free speech as envisioned by anyone who is an actual advocate of open society or free speech.
What we have on Lemmy is probably the closest thing we’ll ever get to a public square in the Internet. Someone can go and say their hateful thing. Then they can get run out of the instance they’re on and go find another one. If they say hateful things and get run out of there, they can find another one. Who knows, one day they might find an instance full of like minded hateful people who don’t run them out. Of course, they’re likely to find that instance is not federated very well or broadly. Much like people from non racist towns don’t like to have much to do with towns widely known to be full of racists.
… and if they can’t find a town square where they can spew their hate, they can still found their own town!
The people who make these posts looking for “free speech” are really looking for no consequence speech
This is why I intentionally use “free speech” instead of free speech. Free speech is important and and essential part of every society.
Exactly, it’s happened on literally every subreddit with lax moderation and it would definitely happen here as well.
I remember Voat which started as “free speech” alternative to Reddit. When I checked the site out the first thing I saw was an underage anime character without clothing on the front page.
Not sure if this is what we want the Threadiverse to be associated with. (Well, actually I am sure that we don’t want that.)
I did not ask for alt-right instances or unmoderated, i asked for a list of instances that support free speech
Free speech to say what, friend?
Try Xitter for that. It’s going great for them
That’s paid speech.
Can’t find any lemmy instance with that name do you have a link?
😂😂
He is referring to Twitter/X and Musk’s idea of “free speech”.
Twitter has a long list of rules and remove all sort of content
They let you complain about the COVID vaccine and liberals and LGBTQ existing. Surely this is what you mean by free speech. You’d be immeasurably happier there.
Removed by mod
care to elaborate on that?
Oh he won’t.
As title i’m wondering if there’s a list of lemmy instances that support free speech
free speech for who? about what? according to who?
what are you looking to say that you feel you can’t?
Wdym “free speech for who” and “about what”? Ain’t really “free speech” if it’s limited in who it applies to. By that standard, North Korea has free speech, as long as you’re a member of a well-connected family speaking in support of the government.
Oh is that why we see so many North Koreans expressing their opinions on the internet?
What kinds of things do you want to speech about?
What do you mean by free speech? You want to share classified government information? Wanna tell people how to buy drugs online? Share links to torrents and other piracy websites? Or do you just want to call people slurs and tell trans people to kill themselves?
By free speech i mean free speech
Which definition of “free speech” are you using? Do you want “free speech” as defined by US law, which heavily regulates what you can say? Or are you using the Canadian legal definition? How about Article 19 of the UDHR?
Does your definition of “free speech” include hate speech? How about disinformation? Slander? Planning to murder the President of the USA or the King of the Commonwealth Realms? Organising genocide? Child pornography?
Since we can’t go against the law i guess according to the country the server are hosted at
So you’d be fine with a free speech instance hosted in, say, Saskatchewan, Canada; where their laws prohibit online hate speech targeted towards groups such as trans people and ethnic/religious minorities?
This dude actually said what he wanted in another thread. He wants an instance that tolerates “basic slurs.” It’s hilarious and sad how obvious it is that these “free speech” people are just racist. https://lemmy.kde.social/comment/497886
I don’t remember saying that. What i asked for is a list of instances that support free speech. Most popular instances like lemmy.ml and lemmy.world don’t seem to support it as they censor even basic swear words /slurs
I doubt there are truly any. Even on the free speech advocating instances, I imagine if you started posting terrorist threats and/or scat porn you’d quickly find their limits on free speech (bonus points for combining the two in one post).
If you just want to say nasty things about minorities (which these kinds of posts are often code for) or hype some crypto scam then there are instances for that.
bonus points for combining the two in one post
Two terrorists one cup?
Congratulations, you win one Internet.
Why don’t you just share with the class exactly what you think you should be allowed to say instead of being so oddly cryptic.
I mean, my instance has rules and I enforce them. Should I not be permitted to do that?
All I hear from this is a snowflake upset about the fact that they can’t use “basic slurs” (whatever the hell that means) without facing repercussions. Imagine that. People disliking the use of offensive words towards the underprivileged. The audacity.
You are free to do what you want on your instance. I asked for a list of instances that support free speech
You’ll find that most are—and probably more so than corporate platforms since they’re user-driven and hosted. They aren’t beholden to shareholders and advertisers. The reality though is that the majority of users and instances won’t tolerate slurs and similar stereotypes, insults, etc. and the instances they federate with won’t either. Conspiracy theories? You’ll find plenty of spaces for that kind of stuff. The same goes for right and left-wing stances too.
Hexbear, for example was found to be far too extreme in its views for some instances and users, and those instances took it upon themselves to no longer federate with them. That’s the catch with being able to freely express views. They are not immune or free from criticism and being relegated to obscurity.
Communities like this are always fractured into echo chambers and safe spaces for people. That’s the benefit of them. It’s not like going outdoors where you’re subjected to everything and have no way to filter it. People aren’t seeking out a giant pool of collective noise; they are seeking out the specific music they want to hear.
Freedom of speech is for the government, not privately run servers. This sounds like a Republican not wanting people to disagree with him. That’s fine but maybe try 4chan or that trump twitter site?
that trump twitter site?
It’s called X now
I’m going to keep on deadnaming Elon’s company until he stops deadnaming his trans kid, so it’ll probably always be twitter to me
Free speech is a right everyone should have. I’m looking for a list of instances that support free speech and grands that right. This is totally unrelated to US politics
You could always create a Free Speech community and make your own rules.
There are still a lot of caveats. For example, your server hosting provider can block you for posting objectionable content, like anti-LGBT references. If you host at home, you ISP can ban you. Then comes the domain extension. The domain extentions are controlled by some company or the other, like .com is managed by verizon, .zip is managed by Google etc. They, or the domain provider can also terminate your contract.
Onion domains may be a solution, but if you post seriously objectionable content, like leaking CIA secrets, you can expect someone to knock on your door soon.
The only real free speech instance is if you all go out on a boat together to international waters
deleted by creator
Then you’re beholden to whatever the instance owner wants you to do, and your users have to follow instance rules
deleted by creator
Then you’re beholden to your service providers
Walk outside onto the street corner and start shouting all the speech that you’re supposedly being censored for here. Free speech doesn’t guarantee you the right to say what you want on other people’s platforms.
Please direct your attention up a couple comments where someone specifically covered the difficulty in doing so
One great thing about Lemmy, you can always start your own instance. However, I strongly suspect that you will quickly find your instance defederated from just about every major instance. The thing is, that “free speech” doesn’t mean other people have to put up with anything you say. It does mean that you are free to go about saying whatever you want and are free from prior Government restraint on your speech. That isn’t completely without limits however, making specific or terroristic threats have generally been ruled to not be protected speech. You can also be held accountable, after the fact, for the effects of your speech.
For example, you are free to yell “fire” in a crowded theater, no matter how many people incorrectly state otherwise. And, in fact, if there is a fire in said theater, you really should. However, if you yell “fire” in a crowded theater, with the intention to cause panic, and that panic results in injury or death, you will be held accountable for your negligence. It’s not the speech which is illegal, it’s the negligence. Government limitation on speech has to be very narrow and have a vary good reason for doing so. That’s a high bar which many laws have failed to meet.
All that is to say, “free speech” is about Government action, not private action. Once you are on my property, I don’t have to tolerate your speech. If you show up on my front lawn and start screaming “I hate puppies!”, it’s my right to tell you to get the fuck off my property. And, the police will assist me in enforcing that right. Though, at that point the issue is trespass and not your speech. There is some limiting of my property rights when I am operating as a commercial entity; but, telling someone to leave, because I don’t like what they are saying, is not among those limitations. Technically, I could run a store front and tell anyone to leave who states “Nazi’s are bad”. Yes, they are objectively right, but it’s my property and I can restrict speech on my property in that way. The same logic applies to online forums.
That brings us around to your request and later response to someone asking about the limitations you dislike:
Doesn’t seem true, most instances have a long list or rules and doesn’t seem to tolerate basic slurs
So ya, that’s not a “free speech” issue. The Government isn’t doing anything to you. It’s just that no one wants to be around you. You’ve decided to act in a way which many of the major Lemmy instance owners don’t want on their servers. And it’s their right to tell you to leave. Maybe, instead of looking for a Lemmy instance to support your anti-social behavior, take some time to reflect on why it seems that you are being isolated. As the old saw goes:
If everyone around you seems to be an asshole, try looking in a mirror.
That’s a whole lot of words for what amounts to pedantry over the specific meaning of something where the intended meaning was both conveyed and understood
Hexbear is the free speech instance, only there can you say what should really happen to landlords and cops.
Objectively true answer. Left wing speech is what is threatened and a place that advocates for it should be viewed as the protector of free speech.
Free speech does not mean that you can say anything. You can’t break the rights of others by using your own rights. For example, racial slurs violate human rights of those targeted by them.
Uhhh, no, sorry sweaty, they’re just words. Screaming historically violent obscenities at marginalized groups is good, actually. It’s just the marketplace of ideas. Besides, they could call me cracker if they want, so it’s equal.
“The pen is mightier than the sword”
Free speech means that you can say anything. That’s the definition. We put practical limitations on it. For example defamation or calls to violence.
But every single limitation should be carefully articulated and considered. I don’t see why a racial slur would violate anyone’s human rights.
For example I can go up to someone and insult them for all sorts of things - “you’re an ugly stupid worthless piece of trash” and that’s ok but I say “you’re a dirty [racial slur]” all of a sudden it’s different?
If we want to protect people from the effects of words we should raise children with thicker skin - not try and regulate what people can and can’t say. Hearing a word does not have to upset you.
For example I can go up to someone and insult them for all sorts of things - “you’re an ugly stupid worthless piece of trash” and that’s ok but I say “you’re a dirty [racial slur]” all of a sudden it’s different?
If it makes you feel any better, telling someone “you’re an ugly stupid worthless piece of trash” would get you banned from my instance too, so it is not so different.
And I’m totally fine with that. I’m asking why is one apparently a violation of humans rights and the other isn’t.
Because that false dichotomy only exists in your brain.
There is an entire category of laws called “hate crimes” which are to do with racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. In many European jurisdictions this even is expanded to include speech.
If I key your car, I get one sentence. If I key your car and write a racial slur targeting your ethnicity or race, I get a more serious one. That much is true even in the United States.
So it’s not a false dichotomy but a real distinction we make in our legal systems. One which I agree with in the context of hate crimes but I don’t agree with in the context of hate speech.
I wouldn’t use this language myself because I am not ready to defend that it is reasonable to apply the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in this context.
I think that they might be referring to Article 1, and possibly 5.
If this is their interpretation, then calling someone a worthless piece of trash is also a violation. You are talking to another human being as if they have less dignity, and you are treating them in a cruel and degrading manner.
Article 1 states that we should “act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood”
Which, I totally agree with. However if that was the definition for violation of human rights then essentially everyone in the world is constantly having their human rights violated because not everyone gets treated as a brother by everyone. This definition would be broad enough to be meaningless, I believe. Even though I agree we should love our fellow man and treat him with respect.
Article 5 I see more of an argument for, but I think even there is lacking. It says “no one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.”
For one, it’s clear that the context is in POW / criminal treatments. However let’s expand the broadness of this statement and say that perhaps using a racial slur is degrading. It’s open to interpretation but let’s follow the thread.
Would me making fun of Donald Trump’s hair be considered degrading? I would say so. Am I violating his human rights? I don’t think so.
If I am criticizing someone by calling them a tyrant, is it degrading? Well, it is open to interpretation.
I recognize you specifically said you are not arguing for this because you are not prepared to defend it - because you recognize it’s an overreach.
Freedom of speech is a critical part of having a free society. If we get rid of free speech to protect others, we are simply throwing away our free society for one where speech will inevitably be tightly regulated. We are heading down a dangerous road.
I would never call someone a racial slur because I believe that all races are equal. However I do not think government should be restricting hateful speech. If we believe in free speech, then we must defend it precisely when someone is making abhorrent speech. Because otherwise, we don’t believe in free speech at all. A wise man said that, one who went through the Holocaust. I am with him 100%
Universal Declaration of Human Rights says:
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.
So no, you can’t say anything.
Re-read that quote and tell me which parts implies you can’t say anything. Because according to your quote everyone has the “freedom to hold opinions without interference” which would presumably include opinions such as “[racial group] is inferior” and the ability to express it
I think that main problem is not what you personally said, but that they are hearing the same slur all day, every day, from different people.
Frequency they hear it is what makes it problematic.
“your personal liberty to swing your arm ends where my nose begins” but you have to be more understanding to be able and see where their nose is. Sadly, it is a bit closer than expected.
